KS beware of increased dangers

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KS beware of increased dangers

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:23 pm

This is a serious warning, a little while ago I backed a game called areal, which was a scam, for a full read

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/20 ... rs-beware/

as there just too much to post here

anyway, since then a few of us that backed that game has gotten ourselves organised, and we are trying to make KS a safe place, sure its a hard job, its not just gaming scams, but other scams too, and KS doesn't seem to care, but as a gamer, the group that we have formed are trying hard to expose as many scams as possible,

unless KS starts to take notice and changes its policies, then KS will die, we are tracking a few scam projects,

some tell tale signs,

single backed backer, usually created in the month of the start of the KS, inflated pledges, and posting positive stuff, history of the CEO or the company doesn't add up,

take this one for example

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/12 ... k/comments

no real gameplay,
just concept art,
someone with little or no history who has made crappy mobile games
one backer backing this at $500 on concept alone? no way

but here is the kicker

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/aditya-harsh/92/988/105

been in the company foor 4 years

http://www.bizapedia.com/nc/PYCABIT-LLC.html

started last month

how they expect to raise nearly 1 million on legit pledges, unless 90% will be fake, (similar to Areal) which is possible

there is a raise of scams, a raise of conmen, trying to take backers money and walk off with the cash, so be very careful now, be very careful, KS is now a very dangerous place, unless you know the team or have acvance knowledge of the game you are backing, then take a look at the game in question, closely, and I mean closely, while some might be real, otherwise, might easy be scams,

I wish KS would do more, as the only way they will act is if the project gets media attention, otherwise they don't care,

this iis another scam,

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cl ... ur-devices

but KS doesn't seem to care, unless we all work together to make KS a safer place for all, then scammers will win,

so my advice is, back a project with care, and do your research, otherwise you may regret it

Matthew
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by postnjam » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:28 pm

This so much, I've backed 4 projects, namely Frontiers, Heart forth Alicia, Exogenesis and Untold story, untold story had no gameplay and there was a big pause in actual updates and they didn't keep to their promises of weekly updated, thankfully, it wasn't and they explained they had to sort out a company problem that's finished though.
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Re: KS beware of increased dangers

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:39 pm

how much was untold story asking for? no gameplay footage is fine for a small project, but I would be very, very weary of any KS with no gameplay over 100k, I mean simply dont back them, not in this day and age, even then, smaller KS projects could still be scams, but I would say, gameplay is a requirement, along with realistic goals and tiers,. but it really depends if you know who you are backing, if you dont know them, dont back them, not unless you do some good research.

the one I linked is a clear cut scam, its not just the amount they are asking for but already a lot of red flags have been raised, so like I said, just a warning to anyone here to keep their eyes peeled, as scams are on the raise, I really wish KS would change their polices, as they don't care, or simply not interested. unless backers put pressure on them, and media spotlight is on a KS project, they will turn a blind eye. and I seen this, sure there been times they have suspended KS projects, but only because of pressure from the meida

so again, safe pledging, and do your homework
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by RyanASpan » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:36 pm

I think you're wasting your time on that 'Auraspark' game. They're asking for $900k without anything to show -- even their concept art is laughable. They're not getting funded in a million years.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:55 pm

I know, but it warns off other potential backers, besides, the other KS got canned, so Im just following this until something else comes along, even if it dooesn't hit the goal and it wont, the amount of negative comments, and poor responses by the project creator shows that even though they are confident, but by doing this, we expose some weaknesses, lilke having no experience on the PC platform, most of the game will be outsourced, freelancers, which may also present issues,

besides it keeps us busy, and its not the only project we are tracking, we got a few on our radar,
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:29 am

well, I unpledged, I done enought to expose them, still no video, I guess the guy is running around looking for free assets or something,

in update 2, well what a scream

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/12 ... park/posts

got to admit, he has signed the dead warrant of Auraspark, take this one
"You are an unknown team, and can't possibly expect that people will back such an ambitious project!"

While we are indeed a small and unrecognized team, we want to clarify that it doesn't take prestige and fame to create a good game. Auraspark is an ambitious project, but it's one that we can tackle. Our main weapons for tackling the challenge is our motivation, passion, and excitement.


that answer reminds me of a famous Monty python sketch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt0Y39eMvpI

in fact most of those so called answers are just jokes, even if he knows unity, his background is been on mobile games, fixed hardware and such what, he can't honestly say that, just because he knows unity, he can start programming for a huge range of systems, having to bug track issues with drivers or issues with the OS (windows 8 for example?) or issues with drivers (AMD) you know, one thing he not accounted for, and another alarm bell in my head, he may not really have access to a log of hardware,

another thing is, even from is own budget, and programming and graphics and paid testers (yes you heard that right) that is 750k right there, he says his internal team won't have salaries, but didn't say what that 350 fo programming will be used for, then 300k for outsourcing to freelancer graphic designers,

then on top of that 100k for paid testers, even his post on that doesn't make much sense, why not use his own money for that? why are you asking for backers to pay for testers who probably seem to have a far higher say in the way that the game is made, or what is the point of having a beta test tier? to me that is a real slap in the face.

the guy clearly hasn't got a clue, even his so called mobile games (trust me you don't want to see them) don''t scream quality, and yet he advertises them to say this is what I done. in a remark to my post about been inexperienced, he quoted

Hey, Matthew. While we appreciate your concern, you must realize that inexperience is not ineptitude. As we said before and will continue to say, we believe in Auraspark, in Kickstarter, and in our ability to successfully create the game.


but it can can sometimes mean that, hell even his so called mobile games are a good example of that, and another game I backed, Legend of Dawn, utter crap game, done by a bunch of devs that had no clue on what they are doing, and the final game was a complete and utter mess, (no alpha or beta tiers) but I didn't understand the risks back then) but those people were inexperienced, and the high failure rates on KS are down to inexperienced devs that throw in the towel after a short time, or give up.

any serious backer who looks at that update, at the devs posts, would probably walk away laughing, as even that update makes him out as a complete and utter twit, personally think there won't be much of a video or a video at all, but I done my job, exposed their weaknesses, their chinks in their armour, and if they think their motivation, passion, and excitement. is enough to get this game done, they really can think again.


"You said that you will outsource jobs to professionals in order to develop Auraspark. How will you ensure that they will do a good job?"

Outsourced jobs will be closely monitored by our team as we will be paying external developers in milestones. Each time a job is done to our and backer expectations, we will release payment to the external developers. If a job is not done to industry standards, they will have to do it again or we will withdraw their funding and move on to other developers.


to me this is another worry, and if that is correct, that might end up drying up their budget, as I think the amount of external work done by other teams is a concern, and there also been some good examples of outsourcing gone bad, aliens CM is one,

even though he planned this for 3 years, I think this project will be canned (if it was funded) in a year he would have thrown in the towe and moved onto something else, this game is a pipe dream

anyway, I done enough, I pulled my pledge, his latest post is nothing but a joke, seriously, the answers are jokes, not real, not serious

to me, this is still a scam, because a lot of money will be wasted, or lost, he he would be another failure and backers will be complaining where their money went.

so anyone here read that and still think the game can't be done, raise your hand! as I think this project is dead either way.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by postnjam » Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:54 pm

Untold story wanted 600,000, thankfully, it was being done by a company who actually made games before hand, namely Dungeons and dragons for the ipad. People just became a bit sceptical when the updates went dead for like 2 months, along with the twitter and facebook.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:36 pm

that is a lot, but yeah, as long as you know the company or dev, fine, but with so many asking for large amounts with zero history, they are the ones we should be concerned about.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:21 pm

well what surprise

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/12 ... park/posts

classic delay tactic, areal said similar and they used unity assets, in fact one modder said, he could do similar using the same assets in a day,

by the time he gets the video out, the campighn will be even more dead

Lars, how long can it take you to get something presentable in unity? using unity assets, just walking around, or your own game, how long did it take you to get a early version presentable?

because areal devs said similar on their released video, and that was simply using unity's own assets, I call that BS, on what the auraspark dev is saying, complete and utter BS, and here he claims he knows unity, yeah right, I think he starting to realise working on a full scale game will be a really hard job,
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by yarnevk » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:19 pm

'beware of devs with no shipped games and using Unity assets'

By that standard Frontiers should never have been funded, but that is the entire point of kickstarter is to kick start something, and established devs (likewise actors getting films funded) have been criticized for taking advantage to 'engage' fans despite being able to get other funding.

You should be attacking their unrealistic budgets, not their lack of experience. All of the games I have funded have been new to the game industry, that is the entire point of 'indy'. So attacking someone for being new, especially as a mod on a forum for a game from someone new to the industry, is not being fair to other indy devs.

Attacking them for using Unity is not fair, since that is something Lars and Richard Garriot have in common, they both used store assets in demo scenes for their kickstarter pitch. In fact I would be more leery if they said they was going to write their own engine and not use Unity. Portalarium was holding game level jams which was two days straight, I could easily see someone spreading that out over two weeks if they do other things (like eat, sleep and run a kickstarter), especially if custom assets are needed.

However attacking them for having done some budget cell phone games thinking they can step up to a a massive RPG or MMO for a million because Richard Garriot did is entirely fair. Though Portalarium did budget cell phone games before Shroud of the Avatar, at least people knew him as the designer of Ultima.

A failed dreamer is not a scammer, a scammer is something with the intent to defraud. Maybe indeed some of these need their balloon popped and realize they need to go smaller rather than big, but you should not go about destroying their dream entirely because then we will have no indy devs at all if Kickstarter starts requiring playable alpha prototypes and game biz resumes before funding.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:40 pm

I understand your point, but look it it from another prospective, he is asking for a lot of money, lars only asked for a fraction of that,

if the guy had something to show, I wouldn't have been on his case, in his latest video, he now saying it will take 2 weeks to get a video done, that I call is utter BS

the other thing iis, at least Lars had something to show, that is why he got funded

besides 900k is a lot, what happens if he did fail, another failure to add to the KS failure list, that is a lot of money down the tube if he doesn't make it

I am all in support of supporting indie devs like lars, but unless someone really shows off his work, really shows off he is capable, of doing a game, not only will this hurt KS, but it will hurt backers trust, then no one will be able to see a good dev from a bad dev,

if he was asking for 100k or less, fine, a lot less money to lose, but 900k is a lot of money, and that will be a big failure

and even his two week video BS really shows that he hasn't got a clue, look, if he had experience doing some PC games, or a tiny PC game with quality, fine, but he is doing a huge game, most of the money is outsourcing, another concern, so how much of the game will be his?

I think you should have read my posts a bit better, like I said, I'm all in favour of backing indie devs, but they need to show off that they can do what they claim, Lars did, that video of frontiers convinced me lars had a game, this auraspark guy has nothing, and to be honest, its devs like those that the indie scene doesn't need. and would make legit devs life hard, because people won't trust any dev, not a legit one, not a scam one.

so if he had been asking for under 50k, I say that isn't a bad amount, but he is asking for a million, that to me is a totally different ballgame, and a lot to lose for a lot of backers when they found out he just couldn't hack it.

wouldn't you agree with that?

and where did I say that?

beware of devs with no shipped games and using Unity assets' ?

the issue isn't using unity, but that he claims he can make a game in unity, and judging from his latest update, he can't

and like I said, lars showed off a game, this dev didn't show anything off. and is asking for a huge amount of money on top
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by yarnevk » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:49 pm

I did read everything, my point is you was attacking his resume and experience rather than just the budget dream, which is something you could as well have done with Lars, someone who never even published a cellphone game. I have never published a game, but I have been project lead for multimillion multiyear development projects from my sketchy concepts to production prototypes, something not on my resume before work let me step up to that role.

Just like the last modders that came thru that was going to do a Elder scrolls clone and fix everything wrong with it, is now for their third try going with tribal panda bears as cell phone game chapters having learned their lesson of biting off more than they can chew.

The point is the dreamy budget is silly, nobody will ever support them at that level, and it does not hurt to educate them on the realities of big budget AAA MMO/RPG game making so that they revamp and scale down for another try. As long as they have intent to do what they say, it is not a scam or fraud, it is just a failure, even if they get the money and fail badly like the Yogscast game just did.

I only supported Lars with his 'Elder Scrolls' take because it was low budget and pitched a strict narrow focus on exploration survival, but any indy dev has likely never made a game before so that is unfair to attack an indy dev for that. Especially since that will just goad them on further to prove that they can do it.

Now I am not supporting a game with sketchy concepts and no gameplay at 900k, forget it. But I think this is a case of dreamers rather than scammers, and certainly at 45k I would indeed back a new studio with no experience on just a sketchy concept and no playable alpha.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:05 pm

frontiers, lars had something to show, even ii he was inexperienced, he had something to show

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ra ... er-survive

compared to

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/12 ... /auraspark

a clear difference, but also the auraspark dev just said a lot of BS, that because he knew unity, he can make a high quality game, even his mobile games are crap, sorry but this guy is no programmer, if he had something to show for it, fine, but to go around boasting he can make games in unity, then find out the hard way he can't, its people like that we simply don't need. if he had said, this is what I done before, and they are decent, fine, but nothing of his work screams quality, and besides, 350k is on programming and probably outsourced as he said his internal team won't get any money, so how much of the game will he be doing? that is in itself seems fishy, there are loads of things wrong with that KS, loads, not just the budget,

he can't programme for squat,
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by yarnevk » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:18 pm

Neither can Richard Garriot, he is a bad BASIC programmer from thirty years ago. But even he said he can make a demo level in Unity, it is why he went with the platform as it enables designers to do things without writing any code. Need code for a weather system, just buy it for cheap.

Lars is a bad writer and composer with no albums and no books to his credit, he is only a good artist and programmer, and had to hire people to do what he could not. He did dabble in short film, check out the incredibly bad cows video....past work is not an indicator of future work. But even Lars knows his NPC and fire effects look like crap because of budget constraints, his last kickstarter even said comparing to to Elder Scrolls was a mistake because now people will do that. Look at Divinity Original Sin, a cRPG better than the those of decades ago, despite their previous series looking and playing like crap all because of limited budget.

The guy that founded Facebook is not even the guy that wrote the code, he was just the idea guy.

Their personal resume has nothing to do with it, rather it is about the dreamy budget is unrealistic.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:32 pm

it is if you can claim you can make a huge game then can't, and make a lot of claims that you simply can't back up, if he worked on something smaller, asked for a smaller budget, then, but there is a lot of things wrong there, a lot, besides, for a KS to be funded now, you need to show off what you can do, that guy can't show off anything because he has no skill, if he came back with another KS, working on a tiny game in unity, a few levels, a modest budget, fine, I would have easy let him pass, and might have supported him, then it wouldn't have been a huge loss if he wanted 20k, or 30k, I have zero issues with that. but KS is become a dangerous place to back, this is the issue, its getting harder and harder to spot real honest devs from a fake one, have you even gone through the game category recently?

https://www.kickstarter.com/discover/ca ... f=category

most of those shouldn't be on KS, how can we suppose to know a legit from a fake when KS allows so many on? it's not just one person, its the whole system, and it will come crashing down sooner or later, when people simply won't be able to trust it.

this is why my warning is very real, why we have to be careful, why we need to support those that really know what they are doing, and weed out those that don't know, don't care, or the scammers and the fraudsters, unless KS sits up and takes notice of this, and realises how much crap they are allowing on, then people will not trust the platform, then no one will support a second Josh (limit theory) or a second lars, or another raising star. this is why we need to weed out those that won't make a game, won't be able to do what he claims.

the dangerous are very real, its not just this guy, but others too, another is Night Trap revamped, another group of old devs that have no clue on how KS works, and others, all this is doing iit making KS itself a dangerous platform to trust in and back.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by yarnevk » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:37 pm

matthewfarmery wrote: if he came back with another KS, working on a tiny game in unity, a few levels, a modest budget, fine, I would have easy let him pass, and might have supported him, then it wouldn't have been a huge loss if he wanted 20k, or 30k,


Which is exactly why you should never have personally attacked their resume, again the issue is the dreamy budget is unrealistic and they have no chance of making a million dollar game. So you should be encouraging them to do a budget game with their concept art instead of challenging their (in)ability to do a Unity demo level. If their concept art is unique any Unity store assets would fall short of what they need, and a smaller kickstarter asking for funds for 3D level artists would be fine. Accusing people of being scams is just going to open you up to a libel lawsuit, maybe they have a rich uncle that thinks indulging the nephews game hobby was a waste of money, but would be happy to front the money to defend their name. It has happened before when someone accused a kickstart of being a scam.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:02 pm

I said it was a scam because it raised some red flags at the start, two backers that were created in the same month, his companies history doesn't add up, as his own personal profile said he worked at that company for 4 years, but from another source, the comapny only started a month ago, there were a few warning lights right there, then he claims it was family members that came on, but why would a family member back him at $500, why not simply give him that much direct? I was ready to leave him alone, but some red flags popped up, otherwise, I would have left him alone.

even then I never said that Night trap was a scam, just something fishy, even then some articles about the game unearthed some worrying things, but that too has little chance of been funded, even then, aurasparrk requires 750k in outsourcing, backers won't know the quality, won't know how long the game will take, I was going to leave it alone, just some early warning signs at the start.

but I'm not saying it is a scam, but the issue is, we have no idea, some are easy to spot like areal, but others? space pioneer? another scam by the same people behind areal, how many of those joke projects will simply walk off with the cash? how is a backer suppose to know a real project from a fake anymore? there are just so many projects on KS is a miinefield, and even then, some will be scams, but I am careful on using the word scam, unless the project brings up a lot of warnings, a lot of stuff that doesn't add up, even in the case of Umdlalo, I never said the word scam, just a lot of things that didn't add up.

as for encouraging the auraspark dev, I tried to explain things, I gave lars as a good example of a dev that is stressed out, that you need more then understanding unity to make a game, and that inexperience can also mean making bad games, legend of dawn, an utter shit game from people who had no clue what they are doing.

and all he was saying, his faith and excitement were his weapons, and just said more and more BS, I tried to explain things, but he wasn't listening, only in the early days did I think it was a scam because some things didn't add up, like his company, that is why, but later I new he was someone who simply was way over his head, and I really did try and make him realise that, to do a smaller game, that the funding for this game wouldn't happen, to come back with something else or gameplay.

if he had been prepared, with something more, then again, I would have left him alone, but I didn't say scam on his comments section, I thought it was a scam simply because of the red flags, after that I changed my opinion of him, but still tried to make him see reason, but he refused to see that. but still, there are others out there, other dangerous, KS has been hit by a few scams, some been suspended, others we just don't know about, so the dangerous are very real

but the thing is, even if a KS isn't a scam, how many of those joke projects on KS if they got funded would walk off with the cash? how many are real, how many are fake, again, so hard to see the difference, this too puts legit devs at risk, that is why KS needs to change or they will simply hit critical mass and go under.

this warning I put as a warning, to watch out for scam,s to watch out for those that don't add up, to watch out for those that look fishy, even if they aren't a scam, but now Im repeating myself
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by Railboy » Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:56 pm

yarnevk wrote:He did dabble in short film, check out the incredibly bad cows video....


*ahem* I think you mean award winning cows video - that's what got my foot in the door for my VFX work! But I get your point. :lol:

matthewfarmery wrote:Lars, how long can it take you to get something presentable in unity? using unity assets, just walking around, or your own game, how long did it take you to get a early version presentable?


My first prototype (after scrapping the voxel engine) took a week and it looked pretty good. I could have put it on Kickstarter easily.

My first playable prototype - something that resembled the final game even though the back end wasn't finalized - took another several months. That's what I used for the very first trailer. The visual quality didn't improve much over that time. The Greenlight trailer was the first to use 100% 'real' non-prototyped gameplay. Again it didn't look much better than the prototype stuff and it took many more months to get there.

I know this makes me a hypocrite but when I see Unity engine in a Kickstarter I immediately become more skeptical. It's because I know how easy it would be to throw something together in 2 seconds. The test footage from the Areal project, for instance - I could have cooked that up from scratch in about 2 days, no joke.

That said, I see yarnevk's point, you do sound pretty harsh in the comments for some of these projects. If it were me I'd probably save that kind of fire for projects where it looks like their goal is in reach and people are in real danger of losing their money. But that's me. And who knows, maybe they actually need that kind of jolt to bring them back to reality.

Harshness aside, I do think you're doing something good by bringing up these issues. Most people just don't know what to look out for.

[Edit: After reading more of matthewfarmery's posts I've changed my mind about this.]
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:56 pm

I might seem harsh, but the Umdlalo dev was over his head, that is a clear cut one to see, but to be honest with you, I think if he does come back, the KS will be a hundred times better, fingers crossed, sure I was hard on him, but I think sometimes a person needs to understand they are taking on more then they chew, also it warns off other backers, ok it had little chance of been funded, but still, and he made a lot of mistakes, if he allowed it to slide, then come back, he wouldn't have stood a chance, people would have passed him by, but I also think, its projects llke that that really shouldn't be on KS at all, not unless they have something to show for it,

but if that Umdlalo dev Todd, does come back, and I hope he does, he might surprise us with a good KS, but he needs to put more on the table to convince backers, sometimes I can be harsh, I admit that, but sometimes unless we break down someone's walls, we backers have no idea if they can pull off a game, I want as many good games on KS as possible, don't get me wrong in that, but still, creators need to prove to backers they can pull off a game, and not always easy to see that at first glance.

but I will try to be a little more tactful, but sometimes unless we are hard, we simply won't be able to expose the real threats on KS, but still, I hope Todd does come back, I think his concept is interesting, but I still think a total hand gesture game seems too good to be true, not even MS could pull that off, lionhead studios with black and white, even then it wasn't a good system and didn't always work, on top of that offering it on multiple platforms, another concern, as many of those platforms should have been stretch goals, and his tiers were just terms and conditions, something else that bothered the group, on top of that the budget, only lasting 6 months,

I think with good reason we had to be harsh, as I still don't think that game would have worked, not unless he had a working tech demo, sI really hope he comes back strong, but we will see.

but for the auraspark dev, I only was on his case because of the red flags very early on, but still, I really wish he had took our feedback at heart, I admit I was harsh, but I did try and tell him stuff, but again, it warns off backers,

but right now, some of the projects we are tracking not much happening with them, one has been halted due to a legal depute, so for the time being, most of what's on KS gaming section is junk, joke projects not worth bothering with.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by light487 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:45 am

Yeh.. there's a game that ticked all the right boxes in terms of all the above but then after the fact they changed things.. they went against the general consensus after showing a few examples of their changes and plowed on making a game that no one really wanted in the first place. It's such a shame because the game they were originally making was going to be awesome and the fact they are actually making something and that thing is technically ok means that they would have been able to go with the original idea that everyone wanted, it kinda makes you wonder why you'd change something that everyone wants.

So while it was not a scam as such, it makes me wonder whether the devs originally wanted to make the game they are making now (and still have yet to release) and not the one that they advertised for the funding..
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by yarnevk » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:57 pm

Looking over your kickstarter posts, you are calling lots of games scams and getting them to kill their kickstarter with your scam activist friends. You called out the Umdlalo dev for not having a game background, and it turns out he did and had worked with publishers even though they was budget crap titles that is what devs have to do to pay their dues, nobody gets their start on AAA games. My friend who writes AAA strategy books is proud to show you his 'Dora the Explorer' shelf, even though he will never put that on his resume when he can now put 'Skyrim' on there (after two decades of paying his dues he still writes the crap books because he understands how the biz works as he is married to a game store mgr). You are indeed insisting kickstarter have playable demos, have a team, have a company, and have experience or you threaten to call them out as a scam.

All it takes is a rich relative that wants to defend their name to slap a libel lawsuit on you , because it is pretty clear when they only get a few hundred in pledges that it was because of your posts implying it is an outright scam, especially if you are taking credit for it. Using the 'when did you stop beating your wife' style rhetorical arguments is not going to help if they can prove your posts did them harm. A libel lawsuit is much easier to win because it is a civil lawsuit, whereas a scam is criminal behavior and has much higher burden of proof. Its not going to matter that you backed away from calling something a scam when you realized it was just someone in over their head with no chance of getting funded anyways, because the damage was already done. Those kickstarter comments stay up, so even if they try again someone is going to link it saying questions was raised about their resume.

This is not behavior I want to see by a moderator from games I support, your minority voice does not represent mine. Was it part of your strategy to become moderators on game forums so that your comments would have more widespread standing? If so I think you should be removed as moderator from this game and not allowed to post here.

By your standard for labeling games as scam, RPG Frontiers and the other handful of kickstarters I did last year would never have gotten past the first day. If I want to take a modest risk of prepaying $$ for a game based on concept art or because I like the music, despite no playable alpha demos and just a Unity level (or not), then I will because I know that going any further than that costs money, which is what kickstarter is for. If I have concerns about someone biting off more than they can chew and being high risk, I certainly raise questions about it. While I might even pay $$$ if they have a playable demos, have a team, have a company, and have experience I certanly do not require it. But when I never discover the kickstarters because they got shut down the first week from comment slammers I never get that chance to decide for myself.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by Railboy » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:32 pm

yarnevk - C'mon now.

Was it part of your strategy to become moderators on game forums so that your comments would have more widespread standing? If so I think you should be removed as moderator from this game and not allowed to post here.


I don't know him well, but I believe he's sincerely passionate about Kickstarter and wants to prevent it from falling to bad projects.

If you feel he gets too carried away that's great, argue it out. That's what forums are for. You both know I fall somewhere in the middle so I'm interested in seeing who makes the stronger point. But at least follow your own recommended strategy. Encourage him to take a more constructive path, don't attack him and accuse him of things you can't possibly know are true just to shut him down.

matthewfarmery - You're looking at a living example of how your strategy can backfire. yarnevk doesn't want to see Kickstarter crash and burn any more than you do, and yet he's attacking you instead of the low-quality projects you've pointed out. That's a sign that your approach won't pay off in the long run.

Let's see where this ends up.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:40 pm

I tried to get the Umdlalo dev to reveal his background, he wouldn't do it, at least until I challenged him, but still, he seemed so inexperienced from they way he handled himself, even the budget seemed iffy, and I had a few people take a look at that, as it only went up to 6 months, and what happens then? the project runs out of money? he comes back cap in hand asking for more? or the project ends up going under?

if he had history he should have been on the front page, besides, the Areal devs said they were core team members that made stalker, only 3! were confirmed to have worked on that. so history of a person might always add up, but still there were other red flags about the project, even the way that the Umdlalo dev handled himself when I was just asking simply questions, he wasn't that responsive or seemed he was hiding something. I still think that project if it had been funded would have crashed and burned. do you know how many failed KS projects there are on KS now?

KS failure rate
http://www.reddit.com/r/kickstarter/com ... ects_that/

real scams

http://www.supercompressor.com/gear/kic ... owdfunding

even then there is stomping lands, canned by the devs, another project that got successfully funded on KS and some months later, they throw in the towel, on top of that Areal, Kunckle club, forever bible, and some others, there are REAL confirmed scams

if a dev has history, he should have had iit on the front page, he didn't, and even then, unless the dev really reveals he has suck history can be made up, like the Auraspark dev, as it says on one source, he worked at his company for 4 years, but another source, the company only got founded a month ago,

but there were some red lights about the Umdlalo project, but unless backers also get to break down walls, how can backers be really sure, A the person is genuine? 2 able to make the proposed game? 3, he won't chuck in the towel in a few month?

the problem with KS its dying, it might not look like it, but it is, how much bad publicity can kickstarter withstand before it too goes belly up? how many scams are allowed on the platform and puts KS back in bad publicity once more? before the likes of the FBI and other law enforcement agencies demand that KS takes responsibility or they will shut it down? what I see now, currently, is KS heading to a point where it could explode, the bubble bursts, and no one, I repeat no one will trust it,

what then? no more crowdfunding, sure there is IGG, but its flexible funding policy is also a bad idea, once pledged its gone its gone.

I want to make sure that only good projects are on KS, but right now, they just allowing any project under the sun, and this puts both backers and KS itself at risk.

even then, we have no clue on if the currently funded games will last that long, look at Lars latest update, and the stress he going through, in the end, unless someone starts to make KS wake up, they won't be around for much more, we need good honest devs on KS, those that at least got some experience of doing a game or bring more to the table, unless we weed out those that are on KS are simply those in for the money, or another potato salad project, something that we simply don't need, but take a look at the gaming category section on KS

https://www.kickstarter.com/discover/ca ... f=category

how many are genuine?
how many are joke projects?
how many are scams?
how many will just simply walk off with the cash and simply don't care?

can you answer that? and how is a inexperienced first time backer meant to answer that?

like I said, I will try to be a bit more tactful, but look at that failure list, then the scam list, without KS, we wouldn't have had the likes of frontiers, probably wouldn't have done as well on IGG, and many others won't have done as well,

but unless we really know if a dev can deliver, can have the shear determination to see things to the end, then more and more projects will end up been canned simply because the devs give up or walk away. how long do you think KS and crowdfunding will last then? I say its hitting critical levels already, give it a year or twoo, it might be no more, especially if another areal pops up, or more games that add to the ever growing list of failures, but that is the thing, its not just games that are having to contend with scams, or dodgy projects, other categories too, like the lima one, a device that doesn't do what is promised, and people are asking for their money back.

unless we have legit and honest devs on KS, the platform will die, and all hope of seeing awesome games will be dead too.

the thing is, the comments on my profile cover a lot of games, forever bible is a confirmed scam, so was areal, another clear cut scam,

as I keep saying, some early warning signs about Auraspark. popped up otherwise I would have left it alone, I wouldn't have bothered with that, I just got to keep saying that, but unless you understand there ARE REAL SCAMS on KS, or have been or indeed will be, (project tool) as alreal was a clear scam,

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/20 ... rs-beware/

a very serious threat, but there been others too.

but we are trying to target those that are real threats, I did say sorry to Todd, but I still think even as an experienced dev, he didn't show it, didn't convince me or others he could make this ambitious game, looks good on paper but it would have crashed and burned,

but we might not always get it right, but again, there are so many projects on KS now, its really hard to spot a real project from a fake on, unless you used KS a lot, you won't understand this, I have, even then I made mistakes, sure, but again, this is another point, how are inexperienced people know what is legit or not, and trust me there have been some serious scams on KS, really serious scams, REAL scams, unless people break down someones walls, its not always easy to say if a project is real or its fake,

but if someone doesn't do this, who will? and how long will KS last unless someone does something to make KS wake up??

look at this

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/10 ... -revamped/

it won't reach the funding goal, but I'm not pressuring the devs, I said it looked fishy, but never said it looked like a scam

but look here
http://kotaku.com/night-trap-creators-d ... 1620307753

to me, with the founders looking very inexperienced and a bit dodgy with their own answers, that thing isn't going to make it, plus they changed their platforms, then said there won't be any digital downloads, then later there would be,

but I'm not posted there any more, but even then, there been other devs trying to bring on other nostalgic games on KS and failed, so really, for Night Trap, they are targeting such a small audience it not going to get funded, but I leave it alone, I said when I first came on, it looked fishy, and if the devs had the rights to the IP? and one of them PM me and said yes, but also said they aren't trying to scam people, but I replied saying I never used the word scam on their comments page, just fishy, but then I said, it might be a better idea to pull the plug on this KS and come back later, once more stuff has been worked out, a relaunch, but if they allow this to go to the end, they will have little chance of doing another successful KS.

but we are trying to target real scams, really we are, so I got it wrong with Todd, but still, I still think that game would have failed,

in the end, we will only try and target real scams, even then with so many joke projects, and so many unknown devs, so many no idea what to class them, the platform is rabidly filling up and not all of the stuff on KS is legit, a lot of the joke projects I leave alone, they simply jokes, but still, there will be scams, unless we find them, expose them, then KS will go under
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by yarnevk » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:47 pm

If you truly believe and have evidence of someone doing a scam, that is a job for the FBI not you (or intl equivalents)

Accusing someone of a scam is indeed libel which is not prosecuted by the FBI, any local yokel lawyer can file that lawsuit, so you best contact a lawyer who has experience with public activism on how you should conduct yourself, as you are not anonymous on kickstarter like you are on the rest of the internetz. People who are not scamming are being hurt by your efforts because your standards are much higher than any indy dev could possibly meet, which means they will be shut out of using kickstarter as a crowd sourced funding.

If they was already AAA devs they would not be coming to the indy market for support, but all your stringent criteria for what is not a 'scam' can only be met by AAA devs. The Umdlalo devs would not be the first game studio to use kickstarter to fund concepts to have something further to show publishers or investors. The fact is they had more studio experience than Lars, they was not just former modders with had no clue how a dev studio works, they had actually had published games on their resume, who clearly wanted to do something more interesting than the drek that publishers had them doing. I have greatly enjoyed the Planet Explorers alphas over the last year and a half, they was recently a Steam top early access seller, yet they only kickstarted a similar amount as Lars despite having a much larger game that could never be done using kickstarter funds alone.

So again apply your standard to Lars he would also fail, a contract VFX artist with no experience making games who had friends help him make music/video, who admittedly had nothing but a Unity prototype with no gameplay working, who did not even have a team put together to cobble a demo island alpha until AFTER the kickstarter money was scammed out of all of us fools that bought his scam story about remaking Elder Scrolls by one guy. Lets run him up the flagpole too while you are on the warpath.

You could also accuse Portalarium of being a scam, because all they really did was have their lead artists draw concept art to keep their kickstarter alive, and they also admittedly showed a unity demo level using unity store assets that was completely scrapped, that showed absolutely nothing of the current gameplay on how crafting, magic, pvp, housing worked.

Expecting gameplay videos with unique assets is unrealistic because that takes money to do. If your bar is set that high then simply pass on the kickstarter and leave it to those who take higher risks to fund more interesting things based on concepts and decided for themselves if they think the devs can do it or not. The reality is you are out the funds to see another movie if you go in small to hedge your risks, with the upside that in a year or two you might get games that publishers never want to do. Funding games is nowhere near the risk of funding hardware where you can easily have 10-100x invested, so concept art only is fine for those willing to risk it.

One of my kickstarters (one of the concept only ones) just released their post kickstarter update showing old school JRPG combat, when I was under the impression they was doing CRPG/RTS style combat, you win some you lose some, guess I have to skip a crap movie now since they scammed me by not showing a gameplay video at the kickstarter.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:04 pm

sorry, but that is utter silly, I linked to you loads of scams, areal been a huge one, like I said they are confirmed, some with forever bible, I don't say the scam lightly, but like I said, KS needs to be held accountable, but they aren't what is more, take the areal scam, the devs were based in ukraine, the real masterminds were in las vegas, even then, KS allowed areal on, and we reported that a lot, but only got suspended within 48 hours of its funding goal, so unless KS puts in a better reporting system, a better background checker, people will continue to come on, and we simply no idea if they are real, scams or what not, if we don't at least try, the KS platform will go under, but this is what KS needs to protect us from, but they don't, the turn a blind eye unless there is media pressure, the forever bible one is another clear cut scam, as the tech belong to another manufacturer, it been halt due to a legal depute, but it is still a scam, as the people behind forever publishing, did a previous KS and sold crappy T shirts.

but the platform is becoming unsafe, have you backed any projects recently? its a minefield, like I keep saying, a lot what is on KS at joke projects, but some will be clear cut dodgy, the FBI won't get involved, not unless KS doesn't change its ways, but the amount of scams have risen, check my links, they are real scams,

and I wouldn't apply the same standards to lar, he brought a very good KS to the table, your forget that too,

edit,

I gone through my own comments, you seem to be taking the word scams out of context, not once did I say that Umdlalo was a scam, if I did please link that? what I said, Im seeing a sharp raise of scams, and scam projects, like the ones I linked, like areal, like kunckle club, like forever bible, those are scams, but I never said Umdlalo was a scam,

my word use of scams is very limited, unless Im describing existing known scams, so you seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying, but again, scams are on the increase, and KS are turning a blind eye to them, unless they add some kind of protection, then projects like areal will simply come back until they get funded, and I have listed a lot of confirmed scams, its those I'm referring too mostly when I use the word scam
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by yarnevk » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:30 pm

Again if you truly believe Umdlalo was scamming, then you can absolutely report them to the FBI. Scam has a strict legal definition, it requires intent to swindle someone out of money using fraudulent means.

The FBI does it all time themselves, they just call them stings, just ask any congressman.

All I see is you ruined the possibility of an indy dev doing a unique game concept by slamming their comment section as if it was a scam that needed to be shut done, when it clearly was nothing of the sort. The sad thing is you gloat in it and feel no remorse about putting indy devs out of work in your campaign to shut down the scammers, there is no way they can come back from the damage you have done to their studio and names. That is what libel indeed means, it is causing someone financial harm by spreading rumours that are not true, unlike a scam case you do not need to prove intent of harm. A modder I know tried a similar tactic for a MMO RPG on kickstarter (that was being run by an ex fight promoter and mortgage broker, which was enough of a resume to not even risk backing personally), and indeed she got threatened with libel and she had to not only cease and desist but publicly apologize on all the forums after all her comments was deleted.

Some google research would have shown Umdlalo was not clueless modders and I would have been willing to risk the price of a movie to give them a chance solely because they had a unique game conept. It would have been the same act of faith when you research Lars on google and get an IMDB hit that he at least knows how to run a self employment biz, but what the hell does he know about making open world story driven RPG. If you do not believe that Undllalo was a scam then why did you do what you did slamming their comment section, the end result is clear low $$$ in funds and they had to pull the KS. You even threatened to report to KS if they did not immediately respond , and you ended up looking pretty stupid when they indeed had a resume. Again libel does not require intent, it only requires a result, what you are doing is indeed libel.
Last edited by yarnevk on Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:39 pm

and like I said, I never one said that was a scam, I said there has been a sharp raise of scams, so a indy dev needs to bring more to the table to convince backers to back him, that is what I'm saying, I'm warning him there been scams, not saying he is a scam, you seem to be confusing what I mean, In truth I was trying to help him, see reason, because he had nothing to show for it, again you seem to mis understand that too, as legit devs need to be careful, as there have been a large raise of scams, Im trying to warn him that unless he shows more, he won't get noticed, even he admited later he started the project too early, if he had a video, some gameplay footage, again I probably would have backed him, but I did not class that project as a scam, just a dev that seemed way over his head, even the budget seemed iffy, the terms and conditions of the tiers, I wanted to see the game happen, but as it stand the KS would have stood no chance, again you seem to be confusiing what I was trying to say to him

no, I not ruined him, he would come back stronger, I'm pretty sure he will , but he needed to show off gameplay footage to convince backers the concept worked, that the platforms he said the game would come on was within his budget, and like I said, the budget of his, only lasted 6 months, check it out yourself, and tell me iif it looks ok to you? as it didn't to me and others that looked it it, he would have crashed and burned, he would have ran out oof funds before he got a game out of the door, and that list is growing too

and like I said, I never said Umdlalo was a scam, only that there been a sharp raise of them, so please don't accuse me of calling Umdlalo a scam, only that I used the word to decribe those that we know are scams, and there been a lot of them, if you check the links I provided.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by yarnevk » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:49 pm

You do realize that the contract writer for this game is also the contract writer for another game, where he acted as the US front for the Australian developer to get listed on kickstarter? Maybe you should put him out of work too for running an international scam...if you are going to be a zealot you need to be absolute about it after all. One of my funded KS has East European devs WTF does that have to do with anything at all.

The facts are that slamming someones comment section like you did indeed prevented their kickstarter from even getting started. That is enough for them to take libel action if they was so inclined, simply pointing to 'other' scams is inferring that one is a scam too.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:53 pm

look, your taking my words out of context now, look at the page yourself,

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wicked/umdlalo

he had no video at the start, he added in the map a bit later, take a look at the budget of his, the tiers, and you tell me if that game would have worked? it wouldn't have done,

this is his budget

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B15UQ1m ... RSTGc/edit

I had a few people spot too odd things about iit, so to others, that budget of his wouldn't have lasted long

so your saying that that project would have got funded? looking like that? with a budget like that? it wouldn't have
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by yarnevk » Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:00 pm

Does not matter, with what I saw I would have put in low $$ even though it was a concept but I would certainly not do $$$ as I have for games much further along. There is no requirement for gameplay videos in Kickstarter and you are mistaken in pushing that as proof of no scams (as Lars said he could knock a demo reel out easy in Unity), they can absolutely do just concept art much like they would pitch a publisher. Other games I have funded had nothing more than concepts, no gameplay videos at all. By slamming their comments you removed the opportunity to give it a chance and to have the rest of the community to participate. Organized slamming of comments is just as bad as a DDOS attack IMO, something Anonymous likes to do in their activism, but at least they have the common sense to be ...anonymous... when they do.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by Railboy » Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:15 pm

Couple of things.

First, you're both using the word 'scam' and talking past each other. You've got to agree on what you mean by that. If you mean two different things, then pick two different words - if you mean the same thing, pick one word and stipulate what it means.

Second, matthewfarmery, I'd recommend using about 1/4 as many words. A lot of your points get lost in the white noise.

Third, I'm starting to see a lot of repetition. And repetition means the impending death of the argument. An argument where people are actually communicating progresses - you rarely see the same point made twice. Here we're seeing the same points made over and over. Pretty soon it'll devolve into keeping 'score' (if it hasn't already) and then I'll have no choice but to lock the thread.

The only way to fix this is to step back, cut the noise and summarize your positions clearly & succinctly. You could both do this in 5 sentences tops. Then respond to those specific points and leave the rest for the birds.

Arguments are structured. There are rules, just like a sport. Sure you can just yell at each other, just like you can kick a ball around without any goals or score. But you'll have a better, more productive time if you follow the rules.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by yarnevk » Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:20 pm

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthre ... 9f&t=16044

Did not take me long to find you started this thread 'Umdlalo (another scam)' started by you on a gamer forum.

Lawyers can search the internet just as well as I can (they just get $$$/hr for doing it). I too have been critical other KS and why I did not think i would fund something, even gone as far as saying pandas are not floating my boat so no money from me, but outright accusing someone of scamming (which you do mutiple times in that thread) and slamming someones KS is going too far. Scam has a criminal law definition you can look it up yourself. Good lawyers know they do not even need proof you outright called them a scam, they need only prove you was the one spreading the rumours that libeled them and caused them harm.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by RyanASpan » Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:24 pm

Matthew, I'd certainly say you're taking this a bit too far. Dogpiling on brand new Kickstarters before they ever have a chance to get off the ground is overzealous. It's not your duty to strongarm every hopelessly ambitious campaign into shutting down. If a project is a non-starter, let it fail on its own terms. People on KS have eyes. They can decide for themselves what to back and for how much.

Now, if the devs have had a week or two to get their shit together and there are still obvious signs of fraud or deception, then sure, fire away. But if it's simply a matter of biting off more than they can chew, it's plainly not a scam, and you and your group should leave it well enough alone.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:45 am

KS has been under fire from a lot of groups that have been trying to take KS and us for a ride, right now, they simply don't care, I would call areal a real near miss, because it should never have got off the starting block, because areal devs did so much stuff wrong, KS allowed them to swopp lower and lower, 4 days of real spam walls, of comments that really did shut down the comments section, fake as day putin letter, and so much more, KS should have taken all the reports they were getting seriously, but they didn't, and like I said its not the only case of groups coming on and trying their luck.

the thing a week or two for a big budget game is pretty much too late, take a look at night trap again, not going to make it, because they failed to achieve a big chunk of the funding from the first 48 hours, if a game fails to achieve this, they are pretty much dead in the water, night trap is proof of that, all they can do is to do a relaunch, but if they don't, and let it side, they will lose their chance of doing another KS, the other thing is, KS has changed, its no longer a platform that can be trusted aynmore, so much dangers and risks, and again KS doesn't care, they have zero protection for backers, nothing too make backers feel safe when backing a risky project from a safe project, people can't tell the difference anymore. and again the list in the game category section is proof of that, same with all the other sections, since potato salad, we seen a huge raise of them, what happens if they get funded?

uless KS starts to take notice what is going on, how many projects they are allowing on that simply shouldn't be there.

even then there been other heavy weights come and and failed to achieve funding,

take a look at this game,

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/an ... f=category

got a lot of heavy weight people there and they are struggling, as they had no gameplay footage at the start, and they might have to ask for publisher help, that will only break up the team,

this is the real issue, with so many projects becoming more and more iffy, more and more another potato salad type projects, and I would class a lot of projects in that gaming category like that, so to be honest, if you do ask for a lot of money, then yes, you need to have a prototype, as people won't trust you, would have been fine if the games were asking for 100k or less, but Umdlalo was asking for half a mill, and like I said, because of the way the pages looked, it failed to achieve 1/3 of its funding in the first two days, and that wasn't down to me, that was down to how the project looked, again look at night trap, but others have come on, asked for more and failed.

but this is really a critical issue with KS, with the platform, how can backers really trust if a creator can or will create a game? times have changed since frontiers came onto KS, and before that double fine, the platform is starting to become mistrusted, the list of failures are growing, other games like stomping lands, and other games that have noting to show of it,

at the end of the day, KS needs too change, sure it shouldn't be us that should be warning off backers or trying to say if a project looks legit or not, but unless KS starts to add some kind of system that will help backers to see if a project has some warnings, reported posts, then the platform will be harder for backers to say, does that look like a legit project?? or is that a fake one? I been on the platform for a long time, now its just soo hard to say what is real anymore, areal was an easy one, had a lot of red flags, but the fact of the matter is, KS should have shut it down before it even got half way, and I was there, the spam walls, the fake putin letter, the name calling, for those that were both watching it as a backer or simply watching it on the fence, how could KS have allowed that to got so far is beyond me, at least they did suspended knuckle club sooner, and that was another dodgy one.

if lars had done a KS now, I simply don't think he would have done as well, that is my hunch, he probably would have got the game funded, but how high is another matter, backers need more and more proof that a project is real, so gameplay is needed for any project over 100k, otherwise people will pass it by, sure there been some that have successfully funded with a lot of money asked, but only if you really know that studio, but for many others, concept art and walls of text on the home page doesn't work anymore, its not 2012 anymore,


but I will come to thhe end, say no more about it, but as I said, KS is dangerous, that is the reason for the thread, I got carried away with things, I also admit that, but unless things change, people will go else where for crowd funding, and we won't see any new games, no raising stars, and that for the gaming community would be a shame,

edit

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/32 ... tato-salad

while the project is a joke, and he made a few mistakes and admitted to them, as he started the KS as a joke, it does prove how asleep at the wheel KS has become.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /14050411/

even though technically charity he at least told KS of his intentions, but it was suppose to be a joke, a bit of harmless fun,

but the real issue is, some of the campaigns on KS seem to be trying the same stunt, another good example of a project that shouldn't have been allowed on, (not touched it only reported it) but I can't remember the link, but a collage graduate wanted $5000 so that he could use backers money to play with the stock market, while he was saying he could give backers t shirts, and while it wasn't going to be funded anyway, but it just boggles the mind, why the hell KS even allowed it? and this was a real live project, and what happened if it DID get funded? and then he loses everything, what then? what do backers get out of it? its stuff like that that shouldn't have been allowed to begin with, on top of more and more potential potato salad projects, as I saw another project that got approved, another joke, someone wanting to do Half life 3, he canned it himself, but it still boggles the mind how or why KS allowed it for starters.

its projects like those, that pose a big risk, that KS is very much alseep at the wheel or allowing so many of these projects on. and this is the other key point, how are backers meant to tell the difference? and what if many of those joke projects did get funded? even if its not just the dodgy projects like areal, like forever bible, knuckle club and many others, this is a real concern to backers, which is the point Im really trying to make here, KS is dangerous, there is no two ways about that. this isn't 2012 anymore, or even 2013 (frontiers) but 2014 and times have very much changed.

I have sent a email to KS support and see if an idea of some kind of traffic light system could be used, so that the report button seems to be more useful, so that if a project does get a lot of reports, then the banner where it says successfully funded, cancelled, but be used for green, yellow and red banners, so the more that the project is reported, that banner changes colour, and when a project is a yellow banner, project creators will have a chance to work with KS and resolve the issues. but if a project like areal does come back on, and there is a risk of another areal, then we can report it and shut it down, then it would say to those that are trying to cheat backers, they aren't welcome here,

as the other issue is, areal should never have been allowed to get as far as it did, but the above idea might help, and be a clear indication if a project could be a bit wrong, but if it is a false alarm, then the banner could turn back to green, but if the number of reports equal to a greater threshold, the banner could turn red, and this would be a clear cut suspension case.

as KS is still not really adapted to the dangers, and they need too, so I really hope something like this gets added, as to me, the ticket system and the report system is a waste of time otherwise, a huge number of us most have reported areal, the fact it got close to its 48 hour mark of been funded, was a real concern,

anyway, this is my final word on this, KS needs to change, and it is a dangerous system to back any game or project on now, no two ways about that. so unless KS changes to make backers and genuine creator's lives a lot easier, it won't be around for much longer.

found the stock market one Im on about, only reported it, otherwise left it alone

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/19 ... nav_search
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by Railboy » Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:33 pm

Well, shoot.

matthewfarmery - when I first heard about you advising people on questionable KS projects I was all for it. Because I do think there are a lot of iffy projects out there and not enough people asking difficult questions.

And I stayed tentatively positive when I saw you going a little overboard with projects that might not need that kind of heat. This was on the heels of Areal, after all. I figured you'd cool your jets once that mess had blown over.

But the more I read, the less confident I feel that you can handle this kind of thing responsibly. I was monitoring this thread to hear you reason out your position against a vocal opponent, and I've got to say, your opponent has won me over. Not necessarily because his arguments were strong but because yours were just really weak. I can't spot any kind of central guiding principle in your actions and I can't seem to prod you into offering one either. At this point I'm genuinely concerned that you might go off the rails and start attacking a KS project that stands a chance and deserves a chance. And that freaks me out.

So... what now? We disagree over something that's pretty important. I don't have the right to stop you or anything. But I think if you're going to continue doing it, it's probably best if you're not a moderator. I went ahead and deactivated your account. I don't mean to ambush you, I just don't have time to be delicate about it.

I'm sorry it turned out like this, I really did walk into this discussion ready to defend you. You're just a bit too much of a loose cannon for me to handle. I hope you'll stick around the forums as a regular joe, I've got nothing against you personally.
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