KS beware of increased dangers

You can find everything down there. Except potatoes.

Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:12 pm

fine deactivate my mod status, but how can you really say my arguments are weak in that last post? that stock exchange one, how could anyone in their right mind think that could be fine? have you really been on KS recently? has anyone really backed that many projects recently? the potato salad one like I said, the guy that made it said himself it was a joke, he said that, as it got a lot of publicity, I didn't label that as a joke project, he did. but still, so many others have come on to try and copy that.

ok fine, but seriously, no one wants KS to under, not me, certainly not others,

and that is my final word.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by RyanASpan » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:33 pm

matthewfarmery wrote:fine deactivate my mod status, but how can you really say my arguments are weak in that last post? that stock exchange one, how could anyone in their right mind think that could be fine? have you really been on KS recently? has anyone really backed that many projects recently? the potato salad one like I said, the guy that made it said himself it was a joke, he said that, as it got a lot of publicity, I didn't label that as a joke project, he did. but still, so many others have come on to try and copy that.

ok fine, but seriously, no one wants KS to under, not me, certainly not others,

and that is my final word.

Because it's Not Your Responsibility. KS was full of joke projects and bullshit even in its heyday. And KS is a business, owned by businesspeople. If they can't be bothered to run the site properly then it should be allowed to fail. Maybe they'll get the message and bring it back from the brink. Otherwise, another site will take its place, because there is money in crowdfunding. It won't be going away anytime soon. IndieGoGo is doing just fine, even if it's still a bad platform for gaming projects.

Potato salad is a joke that people enjoyed. Stupid as it is, I don't see anything morally wrong with it. The other joke projects fail miserably, and every campaign that fails because some idiot is trying to get money for nothing, or just being a dick, is a valuable lesson to those people. You and your friends are not the Kickstarter police, and while I think it's okay to bash on genuine scams, your standards by which a 'scam' is judged are far too liberal and your 'interventions' come far too early on. At least 50% of a campaign should be run by the time you can really judge something -- and if it doesn't look like it's going to get funded, people are already wise to it, and You Are Not Needed.
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Re: KS backers beware of increase of scams

PostPosted by Railboy » Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:43 pm

matthewfarmery wrote:fine deactivate my mod status, but how can you really say my arguments are weak in that last post?


Sorry to be so abrupt about it. I feel bad because I appreciate the time you've put into this site. But it's for the best. You can do your thing and I'll do mine.

have you really been on KS recently?


Keep in mind that right now I'm reacting to you, and to your actions, not to the actions of the people who are launching iffy KS projects. They're separate issues. So just because I feel uncomfortable with what you're doing doesn't mean I suddenly approve of every questionable KS project out there. I really hope you understand this because I think it'll help you grasp where you're going wrong here.
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Re: KS beware of increased dangers

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:38 am

OK, one more time, in that last long post, I saying Areal was a real bad apple, we had so much against it, if you followed the other link I posted, you will understand why, also the people behind areal did another called space pioneer, that got funded, but no game, nothing, they did a pre order website, and still nothing, which is now called project tool, also we been told, that the real people behind both, might be into something bigger, so really if you followed the links about areal, you would understand that.

knuckle club, they did another KS called Confederate Express which got funded, they halted the game in mid devlopment, so basically, they halted their own game, then started knuckle club, so a lot of people who backed the first one had an interest in making this one didn''t get off the ground

forever bible,

this one the people behind forever publishing, did another KS, for high quality T shirts, Radiate Athletics: The Future of Sports Apparel
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ra ... ts-apparel

but they are poorly made, so a lot of people are extremely angry about this, so when forever bible popped up, under the name forever publishing LLC, but LLC got removed a bit later, but the bibles themselves are re skinned bibles that are sold by another company,
http://www.bardinmarsee.com/ (the people behind the waterproof bibles)
so what forever publishing were doing is using KS as a pre order system, they were been the middle man for this other company, even the other company did no real research on what KS was about, now that KS is under a legal dispute, another thing is, one of the people behind both got a new car or two out of doing the first one, (Radiate Athletics) also the way that the forever bible KS page looked at the time was misleading, (and due to the legal dispute its been removed by KS) but it was very misleading, forever publishing saying, they were the makers of these bibles, they didn't mention not once, the real manufacturer B&M
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/16 ... y-walks-on

as for the joke projects, I know they are joke projects, I'm not pursuing them, in fact, we not really active as a group, so nothing is really a threat on KS as far as we know, so while I might be coming across as trying to shut down everything going, I'm not, Im leaving the joke projects alone,

I only reported the stock exchange one, even though Im not pursuing it, because by rights, I think it not a KS project, but I'm leaving that alone, I think the problem is, Im coming across in saying we going after everything, we aren't, in the last post, I'm not even saying night trap is anything wrong, it just seemed pretty odd in the how it was handled, even the interview pretty much confirmed that, a bunch of people who have no idea how KS runs, which is a reason why it won't make the goal, I'm not pursuing that, neither is the group, nor are we pursuing the joke projects, we know they are joke projects.

the reason I linked Avalon Lords is not to say its wrong, but to try and make out how much KS has changed, that KS would have been funded instantly if we were still in 2012 / 2013, the people know what they are doing, but because of KS itself, backers needed to see gameplay, and it was a highly requested feature that got later added. if this is enough to get the project funded, is another matter. but other heavy hitter people with a lot of background has come onto KS, asked for a lot of money and failed,

I would say this is proof that times are changing, and have changed, backers have to ask for more and more proof that a game is real if they are to stand a chance of even getting funded. and we are seeing this more and more, the purpose of the group isn't after the fake projects, or the joke projects, but to try and focus on those that might be a real threat, we got it wrong with auraspark, Umdlalo, we should have allowed it to slide, and the next big budget game on KS, we will, but still, in the case of Umdlalo, that wouldn't have got funded anyway I dont think, I asked about the budget, even the guy answers on that didn't really sound logical, and a lot of glaring stuff that stood out for me, coop and goodwill, video preroll and KS promotion, and others.

but the point of that last post was simply to try and say, crowd funding in general is changing, projects need more then text walls more then concept art, people are getting their fingers burnt more and more these days.I'm not pursuing anything right now, not the joke projects or anything, just backed a couple of games, I think the topic of this KS needs to change, rather then use the S word, increasing dangers of KS, and those like I said are very real if you aren't careful, I'm not trying to make out every project is a threat, if I give that impression, I'm sorry, I clearly didn't explain why I brought up knuckle club, and I had no part in that, I took little part in forever bible, but like I said, that is under a legal dispute now. I'm not saying night trap is a threat, just people that don't understand how KS works, not saying that Avalon Lords is a threat, its not, just brought it up to say, they are struggling under the changing times, same with others that have come on, tried and failed, that isn't down to me or the group either. as they tried to target the nostalgia crowd,

so if I'm coming across in saying Im trying to shut them all down, or something like that, then I'm not, I know they are jokes, I know they are in essence harmless. and we as a group aren't targeting any of those.

I admit, that my posts clearly come across that I am, clearly I didn't explain the real threats and why they are real threats, but I been on KS a long time, it has become a lot more risky to back then 2012, more backers are demanding more and more from project creators, if they don't they simply won't get funded, the long list of failures are simply growing, those are projects that have been funded and nothing shown for it, stomping lands is a good example, but there been others too,

I will change the tropic title, but I realise I made mistakes in the way I'm trying to get my point across, with not enough proof of what I'm saying, the ones I listed are indeed very bad applies for a real reason, we aren't trying to police the platform, only try and target real threats, but I hold up my hands to say that mistakes have been made,

maybe the group should be disbanded, but if someone isn't around to spot the real bad applies, then they will keep coming back more and more times, we think the people behind areal and project tool might try and come back on KS, the other issue is, so again, if I'm coming across as we are dealing with every single KS, we aren't, but my point is, because of potato, salad, there has been more of them, more trying to be another wonder. this in turn is a risk for backers, but we aren't targeting them,

maybe this will partially clear things up, but in the last long post, my point is, KS is changing, yes maybe it does need to go, IGG I don't think is as sound or as good, as they too have been hit by bad applies, but in general, I seen a lot of projects just fail to achieve their goal, square enix recently did a collective program, creators come on, people vote if they want to see these games go to the next level, but what I have seen of this program, not all of them have worked out, one of the first was world war machine that was on IGG, it used a fixed funding goal, so you could get your money back if the thing wasn't funded. and it didn't, it barely got anything. now the collective is allowing projects to be on KS, (with some terms) not really sure how popular they are. as the collective seems to archive any game that that currently in funding.

I would say, that for crowd funding in general, its not going to last much longer, we are seeing a fall of higher budget games not getting funded for a lot of reasons, and not because of me, but because of the way the platform is heading, there is a lot of mistrust, if you not really backed any games on KS recently, you won't really see this, I've been on KS a long time, backed a lot of games, some did burn my fingers, but now, I don't back as many as I did, my backing days are pretty much numbered, because backers need to have proof that a creator. can do what he says. the purpose of the group is to try and target the real threats. granted we got it wrong, but I think this is also proof, that it is hard to see things from a backer angle. if KS does go, we might see something different? I'm not really sure, unless the platform adds a lot of protection, better anti fraud / scam system, make backers feel that projects can be backed with safety. I don't feel that with KS, and I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that. while yes there is money to be made. but only if backers feel safe. and right now, I don't think that is the case with either IGG or KS.

should KS go belly up? maybe, it has clearly grown too big, allowing too many projects on. some are harmless, others not so, I think KS needs to either go under, or change. but still, there will always be threats. real dangers. those that simply can't be ignored.

edit

changed the topic title to something better, as I'm really trying to say there is a lot of dangers on KS, just be weary on what you back

edit 2

I started this topic to try and warn people of the dangers of using KS now, the term of scam, I was referring to real ones, the ones I now listed, but as the topic changed, the title of it should have changed, and it has now. in truth, Im not really a writer or someone who is good at expression things, again I get things wrong at times, never did get a good education in writing, so again I hold my hands up in saying I have made mistakes in the way I handled myself here. all I was trying to do is to say, there are dangers, but I got carried away. that is my fault, writing isn't my strong point. nor is expressing myself in a way that others can see. that is another mistake. but the dangers which I made out are indeed real. that isn't something I'm making up.

I guess from a backer's point of view, I'm also frustrated in the way that KS has been ran, and how its going to hit meltdown, so many projects and games will never see the light of day, that too is real. some of those which have been successfully funded, but will never be anything for different reasons.

I backed games on KS to see the return of types of games I want to play again. and for a while this started to happen. sure there are still games coming, like project eternity, and wasteland 2, but a lot of indie games have gone belly up, either for running out of money, or the team throw in the towel, and there been a lot of them too.

from a backer prospective, this makes me sad and frustrated. and what frustrates me more, are the real threats, those that are simply in for the money, due to them, and I mean them! been a backer on both KS and IGG is a risk, it is. but to be honest, I think the number of games been made on KS are small, really small, and publishers will once again take over, and we will only get games that they will do, or be interested in. and for the PC platform, this is bad news. I hoped KS and crowd funding would change things, a good chance of seeing more games that people want to see. but this isn't the case anymore, and hasn't been the case for a while now, only those that are really determined or experienced will make it now, and I'm talking in this year, not those that are in development or still coming.

this makes me sad, on so many levels, I had hopes that areal would be made, but it didn't, and there plenty of reasons why it didn't.

there are still a few games that I backed still in development, and will happen, but some, didn't turn out as planned, wasn't that good, or just didn't happen at all.

I want crowd funding to remain, I do, if it goes, then gamers will not have good games anymore.

but projects like areal, and others just adds to the frustration, and mistrust.




edit

well, I think I also proved a good point about auraspark
just take a look at the updates section
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/12 ... park/posts

Iou tell me if that those updates are good or enough? or if the game is worth backing now? I not touched the game, or posted there,

seems his level of updates are pretty poor or pretty silly,

in regards to my spamming Umdlalo saying its a DoS attack, I wouldn't say that is the case

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/wicked ... hart-daily

compared to

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/157765 ... hart-daily

there is a clear difference, when West games posted the fake putin letter

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/15 ... sts/919596

you can see the surge of comments on the far right, 26 comments total in a day, compared to 3256 comments in a day, that includes spamming their update pages too, as the spammers somehow found a php exploit, as the comments page didn't have a flood control like many forums, if you think 26 comments a day is a DoS attack, I got to find that a bit offensive, what WG did was far worse, and you tell me why KS allowed that? they would or should have had monitor systems too, and they allowed this for 4 days, as you can see this from the spikes, before KS took action. those were real walls of text. I don't know how kicktrag works, must have had a special deal with KS,

edit

I just feel I have been a bit unfairly judged, granted that I haven't conveyed my message across too well, and granted I have made mistakes, BUT

I admit the topic title shouldn't have said scams, but I was referring to real scams, some I have partial involvement with, others I not had much involvement with. but seriously, unless you are a backer, you must I repeat must, try and see if a dev is up to the task, a lot of KS projects have failed, sure, gameplay isn't a requirement, but it IS one for a backer in 2014, backers NEED proof that the game exists, the Umdlalo campaign didn't get off on a good start, and I don't think I fully to blame for that, I didn't call it the S word at any point, but the front page only would have worked in 2012, it had a lot of broken links leading to 404 pages or to another site completely, no real original art or anything, even if I did leave it alone, it still wouldn't have done very well. I don't think I was been overzealous at all, if you not been a backer, then you just don't understand the risks,

http://cliqist.com/2014/08/18/when-vete ... kstarters/

but I'm not pursuing any project at the moment, neither is the group, I think I admit, Im comming across as not really explaining my own personal feelings and how I'm acting too well

my personal feelings,

I would like KS to improve, they need to change, need to add better protection, and need to protect us from both bad apples, and other less then welcome projects, sure, joke projects have been on for a long time, but things are getting serious now, I would love it if KS would filter them out, or remove them completely, for a backer this is very annoying, and some are easy to see then others. while I would love to pursue and shut down all the joke projects, and other projects, as it does make things difficult, not only for a backers view point, but from a legit dev who is trying to stand out from the crowd, this is why backers need more and more evidence, more and more proof that a project exists,

how I'm going to handle my myself on KS

I have admitted my mistakes, but unless backers at least try and find those really rotten applies, like areal, like devs that come on do a KS, then disappear in the night, then come back, do a second KS under a new name, then do another KS for more money, good example are the ones I listed, what is also hard, is that people can come under new companies, even if company hasn't existed that long. in the case of areal, we have one person doing space pioneer and using the devs to do most of the communication, then the other, (we think these two are either father and son or cousins, but we can't be 100% but they are related) so the other setup or communicated with a group in another country, in the case of areal, Ukraine. but its pretty easy to use front companies.

but my own personal involvement, hasn't been that much, I took very little part in forever bible, Areal I did, as that was a clear cut bad apple, no involvement with knuckle club, Umdlalo, I wanted to see more proof of a game, (I didn't say it was a bad applie, but I guess I might have implied it) but still, a lot of glaring issues, a lot of things that I don't think would have worked, even the guy later admited he started it too early, and was also considering pulling the plug anyway.

auraspark, I agree some mistakes there were made, my view point is, someone who doesn't understand how KS works, even the guys own updates don't really help matters, and I've not there posted since

I backed Aegis Defenders, and posted a bit there, and animal gods which the devs themselves have plugged the plug, (and I assure you I have nothing to do with that) but lack of gameplay really did hurt them, again while it isn't a requirement, it is on today's KS, times have changed, times are very different.

after that, I've not really been all that active on KS, I'm not chasing anything, or hounding anything. if I see a large project asking for a lot of money, I will post some tips and leave it be, the tips will just be something like, (if its not doing well)

consider your options carefully, I would consider coming back at a later date, do a relaunch, (especailly if the project is asking for a lot of money)

but if you do carry on, I would consider by the time you reach 15 days remaining (use kicktrag to see if you will reach it) then I suggest you plug the plug, as a project that gets pulled then comes back has a better chance of doing well then one that goes to the end, (which is also true)

if you do a relaunch, good luck and make sure you got media sites on your side

......

or something like that, and will leave it be, how we intend to chase bad applies, we have a few sources which we can use, but still, even then there might be the occasional mistake, but if a group does a KS then comes back doing another and didn't make a game, we will try and shut it down, as even KS has rules regarding that, but sadly no means to enforce it. but if enough backers vent their anget, then hopefully KS will take notice.

at the end of the day, like I keep saying, times have changed, I seen this from a personal backer angle, and know this to be true, I might have communication difficulties, but Im NOT going to chase the fake or the potato sald crowd, they simply don't interest me, or bother me. but from my own personal hidden view point, they do add to the risk, simply because KS has zero protection in place. sure as a experienced backer, I made mistakes, from an inexperienced backer, its hard, and I'm not even starting to cover the other categories either. but once you do add those to the mix, it just makes things really hard. but if you aren't a backer, then you may not really understand that.

so I'm not active, nor is the group, but still, dangers of KS are very real, so very real.
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Re: KS beware of increased dangers

PostPosted by matthewfarmery » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:52 pm

well another fishy project has been spotted,

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/31 ... hemed-rpg/

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Tank_Engine

on top of that, from what Tracey Corson has said, the guy is operating under 3 names,

sure, KS shouldn't have allowed this or checked it better, but this is also a strong point about trying to deal with stuff like this, you think I'm still over zealous? but unless projects like these are dealt with, then others will come back and do the same thing, I spotted that, asked a question and left it, but now that another user has posted to say its fishy, I have to say, it does. on top of trademark violation and copyright stuff is a serious offence, also the other user has contacted the license holder, not me,

but this kind of thing shouldnt be allowed on KS, but still, what happens if the guy has no rights to the the name, but gets funded?

I left it alone, but seriously, stuff like this needs to be dealt with, unless users take action, stuff like this will just keep popping up more and more, maybe KS should have done tighter quality checks, sure, but this is the kind of thing the group also wants to target.

also the project has been running for at least 6 days

edit,,

even if Thomos the tank engine is one of the potato salad crowd, it shouldn't be there, not if the guy has no rights to use the name, so really, the potato salad crowd simply aren't helping in this regard, but to me, that fact this guy is under three names, just adds to the fishyiness. sure KS should police their platform, but this pretty much proves they don't care, don't do any kind of checks or anything, its down to backers to do the work, even if some people on this forum don't like that idea, but it is, and this pretty much proves it, also the project has been running for 8 days plus, so seriously, this kind of thing needs to be nipped in the bud. and like I said, trademark violation is very serious,. I asked the question if he had the rights to use the name, no answer.

edit 2

another example of a fishy project
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13 ... ome-system

you tell me what you make of that? not posted in it, but it's wrong from any way you look at it

another example of crowd funding fatigue

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/15 ... enna-storm

not touched it, pledged or anything, you got some big names, in the list, including Chris Avellone, and you should all know who he is right?

and you think crowd funding is healthy? and safe? how many more examples do you need before you realise there are risks involved now, and what I'm saying is true, I linked two projects that are fishy, one is certainly seem really wrong, plus more evidence that even big names can't get funded on KS anymore. times have changed, what more evidence do you need to realise this? and that there are plenty of fishy projects on KS too, and some might be even worse.

sure KS should deal with this, but isn't this more proof that KS is also turning a major blind eye to this? unless backers report projects, or KS does go belly up, more and more fishy projects will be on KS, and I can't even imagine how many are on and we simply don't know about.

to to be honest, crowd funding is dying, to say its going to be around for a lot longer isn't true, things are heading into meltdown, and like I said, I not even touched Sienna Storm.

another edit

Hi there,

This is a message from Kickstarter Support. We're writing to inform you that a project you backed, Thomas the Tank Engine Themed RPG, is the subject of an intellectual property dispute.


and I didn't even report it, should have sent an email to the people who did own the license, but the fact its under a IP dispute proves, it shouldn't have been allowed on, and might have been yet another fishy project.
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Re: KS beware of increased dangers

PostPosted by RyanASpan » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:45 pm

Mate, you clearly do not understand how things like KS work. They don't check every project before it goes up, at least not for something like copyright violation which takes a lot of checking, which takes a lot of manpower (and therefore would require them to charge money to put projects up). The train thing went up, got shut down without your intervention, what are you complaining about? You and your bunch were not necessary. Yes, you are overzealous by a massive degree.

What I make of your 'fishy project': It looks like it could never deliver in a million years, and backers have voted with their wallets. It's never going to get funded in a million years. You and your bunch were not necessary. Yes, you are overzealous by a massive degree.

What I make of Sienna Storm: Even in KS's heyday this would not have gotten funded. Not a hint of gameplay, not even a GUI mockup, and their team is wildly inappropriate/misrepresented for the task at hand. Writer, game designer, and artist. Who's programming? Why are they not saying? And this whole business of "We'll recruit these famous peoples if we meet stretch goals" is dumb, it has never worked, does not work now, and will never work in future.

You and your bunch are not responsible for saving it because it's badly thought out in the first place. Yes, you are overzealous by a massive degree.
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Re: KS beware of increased dangers

PostPosted by Vance » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:56 pm

I read this entire thread and clicked on all of the links provided...

After careful observation, I would have to agree with Lars and Ryan.
I personally love Kickstarter and other indie platforms for the opportunities they give where other places do not.
These projects you speak of may have some faults, but the entire system is geared to weed out the bad apples, lest one slips past the radar.

Ultimately, it is your job as a consumer to choose what and what not you wish to support.
I chose to support Frontiers, and believe I made a wise decision...
Wonderful community and a great game with lots of potential.

If it wasn't for the previous platform, Indiegogo, I would have never known about this game.
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