Legendary edition WTF?

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Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by yarnevk » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:31 am

Not much action in this subforum here...

Maybe Lars will see my Skyrim rant and make sure skilling is not as brain dead programming..

Recently got back into trying to finish it after the Legendary edition came out, enjoying the house building, not reading spoilers on plot letting in RP naturally.

Found myself stuck at level 60 and not able to reach the fingertips on my Destruction perk tree as I am at level 100 which is the cap, turns out after reading up in Legendary edition that you do not get to skill further up perk trees if you continue to use that skill! How frakking brain dead is this. Instead you have to use some other skill destroying your RP that you are a fire mage and use some other dark magic that your order does not use, in order to become a perfect fire mage. Or even worse mark the Destruction skill as legendary which get this, forgets that you know anything at all about Destruction and reverts you to a frakking noob, all so you can skill up again and get your final perks, but you do not dare use Destruction as a noob when you are facing lavel 60 scaled bandits.

So now I am using Alteration/Paralyze and outfit my HouseCarl to tank for me as an Ebony heavy fighter and I am dead if things get near me, because my other skill is dual weilding draedic blades and that is also maxed at 100 so I get no levelling if I use them. I am basically told to not RP my character the way I want for a while so I can get fully skilled in the original RP design of my character as a dual wielding destructive assassin dude. Ignore me while I hide in shadows and explore my illusion skill tree which I never used either....not to mention everyone who plays Morrowind knows Paralyze is an Illusion and not an Alternation, I am just making you think you are paralyzed not actually paralyzing you.

Now I remember why I never finished the main quest....not to mention the bears that eat horses before you can draw your blade.

Note to Bethesda. RP should not require meta-gaming to be able to RP. I am head of the mages, champion of whiterun, am going to kill the emperor in my frakking batman suit because it is cooler than that clown assassin get up and you should not sleep nor even try to lock you house if I am in your neighborhood because I got gems I am looking for. Yet I cannot light my campfire with my hands because it prevents me from turning you into a campfire.
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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by FigmentEra » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:51 am

Didn't they fix this, at least to some extent, with Legendary skills? Admittedly, it's not much help if you want to use nothing but that skill.
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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by postnjam » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:02 pm

This is why I hated Skyrim and liked Fallout and oblivion more.....well, one of the many reasons I hated Skyrim.
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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by yarnevk » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:20 pm

FigmentEra wrote:Didn't they fix this, at least to some extent, with Legendary skills? Admittedly, it's not much help if you want to use nothing but that skill.


Not really since they deskill you when you are legendary skill, which means you can now skill it up to gain more perks, but it means going back to being a complete noob in that skill so you would not want to actually use that skill. So the end result is the same you use some other skill that is less nooby because you might have used it occasionally over 60 levels, but higher main quests are not suitable for noobs nor are reclearing side quest dungeons. It makes no sense that I would forget all the tricks and mastery of Destruction, when I am head of the frakking mages school!

Perking is actually the reward for main levels with skill level gates, when it should be purely the reward for using that skill to cap, thus you have the catch 22 of having to metagame forcing playstyle away from RP your desired class from the start to make sure you reach the end of your desired perk tree. Thus I should start wearing heavy armor because I will take lots of hits now that I have high health and it will level fast, which means I will clank so no point in stealth attacks (since my bow and blade are also max) so might as well carry two handed weapons and be an illusory battlemage (dam they need Destruction too, dammit). I am being forced to change my RP, and not allowed to max out my desired RP, the only reason not to quit is I actually want to finish the game this time.

What they should have done is that legendary allows you to continue getting perk levels in that skill by using that skill and continuing to get the main level up, while capping the skill itself at 100. Now I need to find or write a mod that does that, when I just wanted to play the game for the holidays while I have a gap between forthcoming indy releases. You would work up to +5 Legendary Destruction rather than getting 105 Destruction and unbalancing the game, and use that extra skill level to unlock perks.
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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by FigmentEra » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:16 pm

It is a sort of odd way of deciding to balance it, yeah, but I imagine they chose the best way they could find to implement it without totally changing the way the skills work after the game had been out for a year.
I dunno, I never really minded the way it works. I guess that's because I always like constantly evolving characters, so my character who was previously only sort of dabbling in destruction became a lot more interested in being a full mage at some point after maxing one-handed. I used the Legendary skill to enforce that, by removing my ability to fall back on brute force.
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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by yarnevk » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:03 pm

Sure some want to evolve their character into a different playstyle, but I will replay the game with a different character I do not want the game to force roleplay changes on me. RPGs should start you off weak and then get strong, making it so that you lose your skills and get weak again is illogical game design. Making mobs stronger by them realizing they need to send their best bandits out to guard the caves is fine with me, but do not weaken my character as it simply makes no plot sense. And I am really mad I played an extended weekend and did not level at all!

Anyone with mod suggestions? They way I want it to work does not at all change the way the game leveling. Marking legendary skills would simply increase legendary skill points to continue to use that skill for main leveling and thus earning perks, but the skill itself would be capped at 100 as that would get unbalanced. Most modders cannot resist the urge to tinker http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/ ... legendary/ so finding one that does not actually change the skill trees or power around and makes just this simple change seems like a search quest or a modding effort.

Wait what is this mod over here that lets me change hundreds of womanly curves in the game, from lolis to a busty booty? The Dragonborn must haz it!
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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by FigmentEra » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:19 pm

I once saw it justified by suggesting that once the Dragonborn mastered a skill, he realized that there was a better way to accomplish whatever skill it was, but it would require entirely relearning the skill from the beginning with different techniques. Once he finished relearning that, he'd be much better, but it would take time. I always liked that idea. I've had it happen to me, in fact, with a couple of real-life skills.

I agree that it's possibly not the best way it could have been implemented, but I prefer having the option to being locked at the top. Besides, it adds challenge to the game, if you want it.

It does seem like you're stuck in a rather unfortunate place between roleplaying and min-maxing. It sounds like you both want to entirely master one skill (technically not necesary, if you reach the top of all the skills you use and stop leveling, so will your enemies) and avoid using all the other skills around. I think the Legendary is probably more aimed at the min-maxers, who hit the absolute level cap and want something more to do, and generally it's not expected that you'll need to unlock every perk in a skill to enjoy the game. Especially in the Destruction tree, which seems to have three branches depending on which type of spell you want to use.
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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by yarnevk » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:43 pm

Not looking to min-max way past where the game is balanced, but browsing all the skilling changes that is what modders are doing. I want challenge in the early game, if I want to learn different skills that is what I will do start a new character. After hundreds of hours I do not want to become weaker, it is reward for spending more time in Skyrim than my IRL job. I expect the plot to offer end-game challenge with stronger mobs, not with a weaker character.

I did a Falmer caves last nite, my character is supposedly better at being the sneaky poison arrow ganker than they are, and was faced with the choice of taking them down as my character would and knowing I would be stuck at lvl60 as a player or dying repeatably because I do not know other combat and magic types because my character would not. It simply was not fun at all especially since it was a reclear so the tougher Falmers snuck back into the caves.

I RP a character and do not min-max, I never spam leveled dagger smithing so I can make ebony armor because it is meta-gaming explotation of game mechanics nonsense. I only smith what my character needs, he likes to make gold necklaces for his wife but is not an enchanter. I would do things my character would do like learn all there is to learn about destruction because he is a fire mage, why would he not do this? I rarely use restoration because I am an alchemist, it makes no sense for me to start using spells to heal rather than pots.

So I am going to try a workaround and that is several mods that enable the dummys and targets for XP, to safely train back to level after marking as legendary. It is a bit of spammy metagaming - but I did not even realize they did not gain you some skill, as part of RP I would use them whenever I got a new weapon. And I since I did stall at lvl60 because of this flawed mechanic, I would just be regaining what I should have earned. I thought the companions even had a quest that had you using these to train! Even special forces go back and retrain so I will RP it that way that I am going to Master Blaster training.

Yes there is a S-curve ladder in real life from learning new ways, but even IRL that does not set you back to being a noob. It sets you back only a rung on the ladder and you more quickly learn the new way to keep moving up the ladder. Which is exactly what the change I wanted would do, I would stop Skilling destruction at cap as that would unbalance the game but keep learning perks by skilling Legendary Destruction and increasing my main level simply because I continue to use Destruction I would obviously discover new tricks as a master (the final fingers in the perks).
Last edited by yarnevk on Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by HammelGammel » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:57 pm

You should try the Requiem-Mod. It's called "Roleplaying-overhaul" for a reason. It overhauls the complete skillsystem alongside making the game actually challenging (For example makes it stop scaling enemies to your level, which means that you sometimes have to go elsewhere and come back later.) Without Requiem (Or at least SkyRe) I can't play this game anymore. However, i'm not sure if this will fix your problem completely, and it requires a new savegame. There are separate mods to completely remove the level-cap though (I think one is called "community uncapper". If you aren't interested in Requiem, that should fix your problem if I have understood you correctly. You can then level up your skills as long as you want...)

If you are searching for a way to make a real RPG out of Skyrim, you just have found it. With Requiem you will no more run brainless into dungeons, banditcamps or even wolfpacks.

If you're interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1AVfsqMFZg that helped me out a lot.

If you haven't been using any mods until now... shame on you! Get the Nexus Mod Manager (It has some problems letting you login today though. So possibly you have to wait a few days. The problem has been found as far as I know.), and get those (Even if you have, some of those might be interesting):

The essential ones... really, you shouldn't be playing without them:

Requiem or SkyRe

SkyUI
Realistic Needs and Diseases
Frostfall
Immersive HUD
Less Intrusive HUD (This and the above seem to do something similar, actually they complement each other)
Convenient Horses
The unofficial patches (Unofficial Skyrim- Hearthfire- Dragonborn- and Dawnguard- patch)
SweetFX + it's configurator to increase the saturation, implement bloom etc. Nice alternative to ENB.

Not essential, but you should still use them:

SkyTEST
SkyFalls
Realistic Water Two
Static Mesh Improvement
Customizable Camera
Get Arrows Back (Really, don't play Requiem without this as an archer!)
Immersive Weapons
Immersive Armors
Improved Sneak Detection
Lighting Mods (Look here for comparison of a few: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YceSkJgy ... B0B8BFC01D)
Audio Overhaul

Some less important mods. If you want you can take a look at them too. Their changes are mostly minor, but still enhance the game:

Realistiv Ragdolls and Force
No Sneak Attack Sounds
No More Glowing Edges
No Salt For Meat Recipes (Useful if you use Realistic Needs And Diseases)
Book Covers
Guard Dialogue Overhaul
Fantasy Music OVerhaul (Adds a lot of music)
Seasons Of Skyrim (Removes this weird mix of summer, winter, spring, and fall and makes it summer or winter)
Mike Foxs Darker Nights

(I am using all of the above (and more), and I can confirm that they (at least for me) work together fine)

Those two youtube-channels cover a lot of mods

http://www.youtube.com/user/GophersVids (Detailed, long videos. Has a beginner guide!)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Brodual (Less detailed, quick looks at mods)

Maybe some of those can help increasing your RP-experience.
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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by yarnevk » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:21 pm

Yes I am modding this playthru mostly looking on GEMS and following a youtuber http://www.youtube.com/user/AgustinsGameCenter/featured that is very good at RP but being very very selective and even using a shorter list than him. My preference for mods is vanilla realism to create the game Bethesda should have made, my way of fixing Legendary is a way that makes sense in a RPG, I really do not want to figure out how to mod it, I doubt they did what they did because it was the only way to do it but rather indeed because they are chasing the meta-gamer shooter min-maxer types now and have forgotten they are an RPG and leaving it to modders to try to fix.

But few modders show restraint and just simply change few things rather than overhauling everything. In Morrowind I used the popular skilling mod that hid levels and just made it entirely skill based, which is what I prefer. I want to play and not be editing mods and dealing with conflicts and sorting out others visions of what they think is hardcore vs. OP vs. real or overhauled with no modularity, as you spend more time modding than finishing the game. Wanted to get a carriage and boat immersive passenger mods, but they one I downloaded completely changed the routes, did not support Hearthfire, when all I wanted was the exact same carriages and routes and not have the fast travel black out, when Bethesda themselves already had carriage travel in the opening sequence and could have easily made the in-game carraiges fast travel or immersive travel simply by adding a UI button.

When I was modding Morrowind a would try a few new mods per character for a different experience each time, but I am not going that far with an established character. I also spent much time on the Morrowind modding forum, but left Bethesdas forums some time ago it simply is not the same crowd it used to be. Which is actually why I posted here as I new I would get a better response from people that would support a game like Lars is making.

I just wanted to finish the game without getting seriously annoyed by it before 2014 rolls around as I will have lots of kickstarted games to play then. I lasted a only a few days.... enough ranting I got some legendary training to do.
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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by Railboy » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:33 pm

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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by yarnevk » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:53 pm

Should have you used the owl meme where it hoots 'Dragons haz Peni?' :shock:
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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by FigmentEra » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:20 pm

yarnevk wrote:Not looking to min-max way past where the game is balanced, but browsing all the skilling changes that is what modders are doing. I want challenge in the early game, if I want to learn different skills that is what I will do start a new character. After hundreds of hours I do not want to become weaker, it is reward for spending more time in Skyrim than my IRL job. I expect the plot to offer end-game challenge with stronger mobs, not with a weaker character.

I RP a character and do not min-max, I never spam leveled dagger smithing so I can make ebony armor because it is meta-gaming explotation of game mechanics nonsense. I only smith what my character needs, he likes to make gold necklaces for his wife but is not an enchanter. I would do things my character would do like learn all there is to learn about destruction because he is a fire mage, why would he not do this? I rarely use restoration because I am an alchemist, it makes no sense for me to start using spells to heal rather than pots.

Yes there is a S-curve ladder in real life from learning new ways, but even IRL that does not set you back to being a noob. It sets you back only a rung on the ladder and you more quickly learn the new way to keep moving up the ladder. Which is exactly what the change I wanted would do, I would stop Skilling destruction at cap as that would unbalance the game but keep learning perks by skilling Legendary Destruction and increasing my main level simply because I continue to use Destruction I would obviously discover new tricks as a master (the final fingers in the perks).


Sorry! Didn't mean to imply that you were a min-maxer or anything. I just meant that on a spectrum from 'pure min-maxer' who cares about nothing but the best stats to 'pure roleplayer', who doesn't even look at stats, you're in a place which the game doesn't much support, where you have a specialized set of skills you want to use but you still want to progress farther in those trees than they really let you without using the other skills.

I can definitely see being annoyed about having to reset your skills. I personally enjoy reconsidering what skills to fall back on next, and being enticed to figure out new ways of using my other skills to shore up the one which is now my weakest. Everybody has different playstyles though. I probably prefer this one because I accidentally made a character who was pretty much overpowered, and it's interesting to have more of a challenge on her now. Also, I don't have an option of mods to fall back on, so I guess I just stay content with what I have.

I would point out that in Restoration specifically, there's a lot of flexibility, if you want to use the school but don't need healing. It's got wards and various spells to counter undead, if those would help at all. A lot of the skills have ways of applying them that aren't obvious and are totally justifiable roleplaywise, but still get you levels.

I'm not really trying to dissuade you from using the mods, though. Just sharing my ways of coping with the problems you have, since I can't exactly turn to mods. (Console player over here.)

Regarding the S-curve, you might be surprised at how far back you can be sent, if you learned something wrong early on. It happened to me once, though I wasn't anywhere close to being a master.
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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by yarnevk » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:06 am

The archery target mod got me back some levels and perks, it was getting dark out so I finally said heck with that paid the archery trainer and used the mod config to quickly get the perk tree and skill back to full and earn a few more levels/perks. I certainly would have earned that as I was actually stuck at lvl60 when I quit two years ago.

So I think the skill uncapper is best compromise, I can RP how I want but not get stuck with some rather inane leveling mechanics. The Morrowind skilling mod used a curve to make skilling harder at higher skill, which I am fine with if i can find an uncapper that is in that same spirit. I think I had 105 destruction on my wizard after many many hours so it was not OP, but you could combine an uncapper with the target practice mod and go crazy.

Looks like the favorite uncapper listed on GEMS can be configured to skill level for perk and game level purposes, yet keep max 100 for game formulas. http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/1175/?

I am keeping the target practice mod as it is fun at default rates but I would rather be getting loot with my XP at a more natural pace. Certainly being able to reallocate your perks is a good idea for those that want to freshen up an old character, though I would prefer a new character others may not want to reexperience the main quest, but forcing the issue by stopping main leveling and loosing XP because you maxed a preferred skill is really really bad game design.
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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by yarnevk » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:35 pm

Many immersion mods later I finally went to Nord heaven and killed the evil dragon. Food drink and song but no bed in heaven, which sucked since that final quest was a major dungeon crawl and I was tired from lack of sleep. That was the slowest fps dragon fight in the game ever, had to save every 10s due to constant lag death, how did they ever get that scene working on less powerful consoles is beyond me.

Since I screwed up my save removing broken mods but leaving bad references, I could no longer immersively travel as it would be a guaranteed crash and I got tired of reloading prior save and started fast traveling, the game sure goes by fast that way!

Now I got to deal with the DawnGuard getting hostile every time I get near which I roleplay as they think I am too close to that vampire princess (known bug, reload or wait it out as they are all essential so they cool off once somebody is down). Then will turn on DragonBorn, I turned it off when I walked out of Breezehome and had some tentacle monster in my face which I cannot kill without killing half the town!

Found a realistic wildlife mod that promise to make bears more slowly attack and that is if they are not distracted by other wildlife, as vanilla bear are like a Kajhiit on Skooma killing my horses. Plan to get one of the alternate start mods and try some more game changing immersion mods if I finish this damn thing.
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Re: Legendary edition WTF?

PostPosted by yarnevk » Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:17 pm

The one mod for immersion, that Lars really should take inspiration from because an exploration game properly done first person is a must have?

Immersive FPV - released just a couple weeks ago with even an update today after yesterdays.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/49036/?
http://youtu.be/TUnZ4UZMt2Q

Gets rid of the first person animated hands and moves the third person view in front of your characters eyeballs. Full MCM control of the camera positioning,with profiles depending on what you are doing makes it easy to fine tune while playing (see the forum for experimental presets). Have a preset for in the bar so your mug of mead does not badly clip. When you hold your great blade behind your FOV you only see it when you swing and block, and your torch is properly at your screen edge.

Did not realize how truly immersion breaking all the third person pullbacks for crafting, sitting, horse, kill cams was or how detached the steady cam hands actually are from your body in first person. Use this and you will start walking everywhere because you actually feel you are there taking a hike, and horse riders will love it. You do need to turn down the head bob follow since Skryim does not have your steady eye tracking as a camera!

This makes combat the frantic experience it should be, the spider dropping in front of you, wildly swinging at converging draugh in the dark, reaching down from your horse to kill the bear. The only annoying thing is PC control does not have a body turn mapped to Q/E, though it has an option for head look to be over the shoulder or turn your your body; it would be nice when standing still if it did head look first then body turn.

Such a feature is even more possible to do in Unity, since there you can have a near cam overlaid onto a far cam so you can see far and near without z-fighting and clipping. It just requires decent 3D character animated art that can stand up to VR scrutiny, but that is actually easier than making first person hand animations and certainly looks much better than using one camera that suffers first person clipping. Combat takes some getting used to with the absence of controlling hands blocking your view, but if you use headlook you can always hand glance to check your loadout, or you can map the change view key to F and quickly toggle back to the old view of your hands.

Combined this with Realistic Lighting Overhaul, now your character casts shadows in first person view, though I use the lighter dungeon patch since pitch black shadows are not actually realistic. They have not done this for town interiors yet so you have to carry your torch just to see the NPC in the room which made this view mod essential.
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