64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

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64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by butzer » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:00 pm

Hallo Lars,

will there be a 64 bit version oft the game which makes use of more than 4gb system memory? Can you influence this, or does it depend on the unity engine? I know from my own experience that Skyrim for example cannot use much more than 3gb of memory. If you use lots of mods Skyrim often crashes because it runs out of memory. It would be great if Frontiers would not have this kind of problems. And I think many people want to put their large system memory to good use.

I hope you consider to release a 64 bit version if it's possible.


Yours sincerely,

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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by Railboy » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:02 pm

That depends entirely on Unity. I'm all for it.
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by SignpostMarv » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:21 pm

http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/39 ... s-x64.html

This appears to indicate that Unity supports native x64 apps.
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by Railboy » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:37 pm

Yes that's true, but I avoided mentioning 64 bit throughout the campaign because I haven't done my homework yet. Here's what I need before I can feel comfortable committing to 64 bit:
  • evidence of stable support for standalone 64 bit players for Windows/OSX/Linux. (It may be out there but I haven't had a chance to look in depth.)
  • evidence of a stable 64 bit working environment / editor. (I've heard complaints about crashes / bugginess - that may be cleared up with 4.x)
  • evidence that 64 bit won't make distributing mods a chore. (Haven't looked into this at all.)
  • evidence that working in a 64 bit project won't make it more difficult to release a 32 bit version for people with older / slower machines. (Assuming they have directives for 32/64 support this probably isn't an issue.)

Once I can check off all those boxes I'll make the leap.

Also, generally speaking I also don't want to rely on 64 bit during development because it would be really easy to get lazy when it comes to resource management. Working with 4 gigs of ram keeps me honest.
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by SignpostMarv » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:47 pm

Some 64 bit softwares come with a 32 bit launcher that disabled all 32 bit features, so that might be one way to handle it.

If the app is 64 bit, do the mods have to be 64 bit? I'm going to hazard a guess not (although this is just based on my experience with one of the aforementioned 64 bit softwares :P)

Assuming that the 32 bit deployments are Large Address Aware (see the the skyrim patch), then on 64 bit environments with more than 4GB (e.g. mine :D) there'll be moar memory for mods.

32 bit windows users will likely never be able to have such an app utilising the full 4GB, as the OS will be taking up a fair chunk of that: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library ... 78(v=vs.85).aspx

Personally, I'd prefer a 32 bit app with later 64 bit developments. Unless someone has specific examples of Unity-based moddable games being unstable with a reasonable amount of mods, I'd be happy to wait, optionally participate in a 64 bit beta then go 64 bit without noticing (as happened with WoW).
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by Merla » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:12 am

Railboy wrote:
  • evidence that 64 bit won't make distributing mods a chore. (Haven't looked into this at all.)


If it is pure .net managed code this should be no problem. It should be JITed depending on the execution environment (the game) as long as the mod-dll is compile for any-cpu.

MSDN:
If you have 100% type safe managed code then you really can just copy it to the 64-bit platform and run it successfully under the 64-bit CLR."
...
Keep in mind that a developer marking an assembly as Win64 determined that all dependencies of the application would execute in 64-bit mode. A 64-bit process cannot use a 32-bit component in process (and a 32-bit process cannot load a 64-bit component in process). Keep in mind that the ability for the system to load the assembly into a 64-bit process does not automatically mean that it will execute correctly.
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by Unaccounted4 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:19 pm

Please don't use .NET. Doing so will only ensure the non-windows versions will be a pain in the ass to get to work properly.

As far as I know, and I've played more Unity games on Linux than most people ever will in their entire lives, it will not matter which architecture you're using when installing mods. (So long as they don't tap into the binaries themselves [camera hacks, etc.])
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by SignpostMarv » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:34 pm

Unaccounted4 wrote:Please don't use .NET. Doing so will only ensure the non-windows versions will be a pain in the ass to get to work properly.


I'm familiar with people having difficulty getting mono to play nice on OSX, but what problems are you referring to with Linux ?
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by Unaccounted4 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:37 pm

SignpostMarv wrote:I'm familiar with people having difficulty getting mono to play nice on OSX, but what problems are you referring to with Linux ?


It's precisely that. Mono in and of itself works great in Linux, it's Microsoft's bull***t filled implementation of it (.NET) that causes problems.

I remember playing the first HAWKEN Alpha on Linux just fine. Then, as the second Alpha rolled around, they implemented .NET4 and you literally had to force Mono to interpret it as .NET 2.0 just to get it to work.
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by SignpostMarv » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:42 pm

Unaccounted4 wrote:
SignpostMarv wrote:I'm familiar with people having difficulty getting mono to play nice on OSX, but what problems are you referring to with Linux ?


It's precisely that. Mono in and of itself works great in Linux, it's Microsoft's bull***t filled implementation of it (.NET) that causes problems.

I remember playing the first HAWKEN Alpha on Linux just fine. Then, as the second Alpha rolled around, they implemented .NET4 and you literally had to force Mono to interpret it as .NET 2.0 just to get it to work.


Ah yes- that is something I'm familiar with, the variety of linux distributions and their mono support with regards to specific versions. Most support .Net 3.5, yus ?
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by Unaccounted4 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:44 pm

SignpostMarv wrote:Ah yes- that is something I'm familiar with, the variety of linux distributions and their mono support with regards to specific versions. Most support .Net 3.5, yus ?


Barely, since the only way to actually make it workable is through WINE and that is a whole new can of worms in and of itself.
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by SignpostMarv » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:54 pm

Unaccounted4 wrote:
SignpostMarv wrote:Ah yes- that is something I'm familiar with, the variety of linux distributions and their mono support with regards to specific versions. Most support .Net 3.5, yus ?


Barely, since the only way to actually make it workable is through WINE and that is a whole new can of worms in and of itself.


I'm mostly familiar with c# via OpenSimulator (and Radegast). As far as I know, OpenSim can be run on Linux without WINE, and that's targeted for .Net 3.5.
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by Unaccounted4 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:12 am

SignpostMarv wrote:I'm mostly familiar with c# via OpenSimulator (and Radegast). As far as I know, OpenSim can be run on Linux without WINE, and that's targeted for .Net 3.5.


Yes, but OpenSim implemented C# with the intent of having multi-platform from the get go. That's not true for ... well... much of anything else really.

All I'm saying is, if you absolutely must add more mono to Unity's layer of Monogame (which is how it works under Linux), don't do it with .NET.
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by light487 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:32 am

7DaysToDie is using unity, from what I know, and it has a 32bit and 64bit versions of the client.. seems no more or less stable than the 32bit version in the current Alpha... so definitely there is some evidence that 64bit Unity builds can be stable.
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by DWMagus » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:17 am

Keep in mind, Lars is using Unity, so he's only limited by what Unity limits by. And that 4gb limit is memory used by the process (on a 64bit OS) -- Of course, there are other limits such as instruction size, but considering Unity uses Mono, you're not going to run into that limitation since Mono (I believe) doesn't utilize instructions above 32bit (for cross-compatibility).

Depending on the mod infrastructure, mods CAN be offloaded to a separate process, thereby not needing to worry about the 4gb limit. But honestly, I haven't really played anything that *needed* more than 4gb on the process.
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by SignpostMarv » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:26 am

DWMagus wrote:Keep in mind, Lars is using Unity, so he's only limited by what Unity limits by. And that 4gb limit is memory used by the process (on a 64bit OS) -- Of course, there are other limits such as instruction size, but considering Unity uses Mono, you're not going to run into that limitation since Mono (I believe) doesn't utilize instructions above 32bit (for cross-compatibility).

Depending on the mod infrastructure, mods CAN be offloaded to a separate process, thereby not needing to worry about the 4gb limit. But honestly, I haven't really played anything that *needed* more than 4gb on the process.


Skyrim had issues before Bethesda released a 4gb patch, and still has issues with large numbers of mods- this problem is exacerbated on Steam, where's there's a 100mb limit on mods, so mod developers either have to choose between splitting up their large mods, or not putting them on the steam workshop.
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by Railboy » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:16 am

Unaccounted4 wrote:All I'm saying is, if you absolutely must add more mono to Unity's layer of Monogame (which is how it works under Linux), don't do it with .NET.


I won't be straying from the default Monogame .NET 2.0 subset. There's no good reason to, IMO.
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Re: 64 bit version (use of more than 4GB memory)

PostPosted by Unaccounted4 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:08 am

Railboy wrote:
Unaccounted4 wrote:All I'm saying is, if you absolutely must add more mono to Unity's layer of Monogame (which is how it works under Linux), don't do it with .NET.


I won't be straying from the default Monogame .NET 2.0 subset. There's no good reason to, IMO.


Well, then... how about you buy me dinner first before you start sweet-talkin' me like that! :mrgreen:
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